New Media in the Age of AI: TBPN, OpenAI, and Media Defensibility

Transcript

Gabe (00:01) So Ashley, why did OpenAI acquire TBPN and what are they after? Is it the IP? Is it the trust? What is the actual reason that you think that OpenAI went after this media company?

Ashley Christenson (00:14) Yeah, I think we've seen a lot of takes come across the timeline, probably more than is realistically necessary. Sam Altman himself said that one of the reasons he wanted to acquire John and Jordy was because their ability to market and build trust for a technology that as of right now, the average person is quite critical of, quite skeptical of. would supposedly be helpful in Sam's journey as he is bringing open AI and artificial intelligence more generally to the masses. I think that that's probably part of it. I think yes, John and Jordy are good at marketing. Absolutely they are. But part of this is also just the network that the guys have been part of for so long. They have been in various startups, knew Sam Altman before, so these are like very well connected guys. The show also has a bit of a novelty component itself because we haven't seen a lot of live tech shows specifically that have been able to attract the caliber of guests that John and Jordi have been able to attract. We've got CEOs of the most major companies that are joining, I mean, every single day to have some of these really insightful interesting conversations and sometimes you get to see a unique perspective of these people that you haven't been able to before. There are live tech shows that have existed before TBPN, but they did it at a scale, at a production level, at a level of professionalism and also entertainment that I think hasn't really existed, of course, with the network that they have access to as well. So I think that is also one perspective. of it, they go deeper with the show as well. So they've got merch and a Discord server and they're building community and they've got clips and so they're kind of utilizing almost this new flywheel effect that while their audience is quite small and niche, will likely be able to grow the show and is a part of the reason why they're able to command like 30 million in sponsorship dollars within a 17 month timeline. That's absolutely awesome.

Ashley Christenson (02:41) astronomical. So it's a combination of like value of the show, the niche high value audience that it attracts and having access to the network in addition to the the format being quite unique and done at a different level that hasn't existed before.

Gabe (03:04) Got it. Good. And I think people would argue like amongst the AI companies, probably OpenAI is the one that has one of the larger trust issues across the board. So you're basically saying it's a bit of the network, the trust, and then this novelty, almost like attention. So are they after this trusted attention? maybe can you narrow down what is, and maybe it's a combination of things, but maybe in like a couple of words, like what is the core thing?

Ashley Christenson (03:31) Yeah. So. With live content especially, in the 13 years that I've been within this content format as a strategist in this industry, one of the things that I have realized is live is the best trust and relationship development tool that exists because it breaks down the barriers between the host and the audience in a way that allows you to see somebody's reactions in real time. There's no hiding whenever the broadcast is live. There's no clipping something out and removing it for later so that it's completely efficient for the narrative that a company is trying to build. So there's a level of trust that you're able to generate with live content that doesn't exist with recorded video or podcasts even. But one of the takes that I haven't seen as far as why this acquisition happened is enterprise. So OpenAI, Anthropic, all of these LLMs, really the only way that they're able to sell the amount of tokens required to keep up with these massive valuations is by negotiating really large enterprise relationships. And every enterprise is on TBPN. Every single one of these Fortune 500 CEOs wants to show up on this show and now OpenAI is in front of all of them. So potentially there is an enterprise network that John and Jordy are able to get Sam Altman in front of as well.

Gabe (05:02) Interesting. Okay. And how do you maybe predict them actually putting this into practice? Is it through like just logo or like how do you think they might kind of work in OpenAI in a way that doesn't almost like dilute the editorial lens, but you know, I can kind of achieve its goals that way.

Ashley Christenson (05:22) Yeah, that's a good question because I don't know. I don't know how you talk about OpenAI without actually impacting the trust that you've generated on the show so far. think that it is gonna have to be impacted because you don't have, for example, the sponsorship, the ad reads that you had anymore. And those were actually kind of a cultural moment for the community that consumed TBPN's content. They seem to really enjoy them to the point where now they're kind of reminiscing on the advertising era and they miss some of the ad reads. So there's that aspect. There's also just the fact that people know this is OpenAI's show. And while Sam Altman can say they maintain full editorial independence and they're allowed to push back and pressure OpenAI on anything, what is realistic might not be the thing that is said publicly. I don't know what their, I don't really know how their content develops from here. I hope that it stays as trust generating as possible because that is ultimately how OpenAI gets in front of these enterprise companies and then can negotiate these longer term deals that help them.

Gabe (06:50) you

Ashley Christenson (06:53) I hope OpenAI is able to stay high trust with this audience so that they can negotiate these longer term deals so that their business is actually viable long term because they've done a lot for us and ChatGPT Images 2.0 is helping me make much better YouTube thumbnails so more of this please.

Gabe (07:18) Yeah, and on that vein, it seems like right after the acquisition, we just stopped seeing them. there's been a lot of speculation. It's because of the lawsuit between Elon Musk and OpenAI. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts. What do you think is the reason why we potentially haven't been seeing them?

Gabe (07:42) Sorry about that. me...

Ashley Christenson (07:44) You're good.

Gabe (07:49) Someone's calling me.

Gabe (07:53) Yeah, I'll ask that again. Or actually, yeah, yeah, let me ask it again. So why do you think we haven't been seeing TPPN on X as of later? You know, there's kind of been this speculation around the lawsuit between Elon Musk and an open AI kind of throttling the visibility. I'm curious to hear your take on that.

Ashley Christenson (08:14) Yeah, yeah, some people were talking about a shadow ban, very speculative, but the reality of this is that especially with live content, anytime that there is a major headline, it's very natural to experience a viewership attrition after that major news. And even in marketing in general, you kind of have like peaks and valleys when you have major headlines or this like major inflection point of mass awareness and attention that you've never experienced before, that doesn't just create a new baseline for you to operate from, or like in perpetuity. It's something that it still shifts and adjusts over time and you're going to have valleys just like you're going to have the peaks. So I don't think that it's a speculative, know, Elon Musk digging his little dirty fingers into the algorithm. I don't think he even has much visibility into the algorithm itself or potentially even as that involves with X right now, think Nikita Beer, X's head of product, is leading a lot, but even he doesn't get involved or work on the algorithm at all, so he also doesn't impact the visibility. I think more likely what happened is a lot of us consumed TBPN for the maybe 48 hours that that news was hot, and then we moved on to the next thing, and that impacted their reach, and that's just very normal. We have seen a recovery of TBPN content on the timeline. It could be a result of everybody saying, hey, we're not seeing TBPN as much. What's happening? And so more people go and check out what went wrong with TBPN. And so then their content starts surfacing more in the algorithm. So I don't think it's this insidious thing. I think it's just normal human behavior.

Gabe (10:09) Wow, okay, so it's almost like a narrative climax and then you can't really go up from there. So we have this like attention trough and that's your theory around why we haven't been seeing them. Do you have any other examples like off the top of your head, maybe this something like this occurred and maybe a traditional media or even other agencies or, know.

Ashley Christenson (10:22) Yep, exactly.

Ashley Christenson (10:34) You know, I don't know if I have an example that would be similar to the live show that John and Jordy have, but I've led marketing in close to 60 different startups. And anytime that we have a large press release or a large announcement, there is a very natural peak in attention. You acquire some customers and community members as a result of that. But it... Like I said, it doesn't create this new baseline where all of a sudden you have a lot of people who are paying attention to you because they saw a big publication talk about you. It's more like, okay, here's a boost in trust and credibility and people are gonna check you out, but it's not necessarily a... enough of a forcing factor to keep people checking in consistently, that is still a result of good content and good marketing over an extended period of time.

Gabe (11:37) So these reps, you think the reps of live streaming and trust is how you kind of cement the baseline of attention for these types of audiences.

Ashley Christenson (11:47) Yeah, absolutely.

Gabe (11:49) And on that piece to kind of switch around a little bit. So MTS was launched recently by A16Z. I'm curious to hear what is your kind of takes. I think you've said they're still finding themselves, but what separates an MTS versus TPPN if someone like A16Z has all these resources, maybe arguably the network reach similar to TPPN in some regards? Why have they just not

Ashley Christenson (12:03) Mm-hmm.

Gabe (12:19) showing up in the same ball game really.

Ashley Christenson (12:22) Mm. Yeah, so I'm doing some work with MTS actually, I can give you, I haven't announced that publicly, but I am working with the team and as of like two days ago. So I have some probably additional perspective that I can give here that I couldn't before. So with TBPN, they have of course, 17 months of timeline and that's 17 months of a team that from what I have learned, And it goes pretty hard. I have heard people almost call it like an Elon Musk company. They work really hard. They get a lot done, long days, very fast pace. And when you compound that over 17 months of a show with that level of pace and attention and dedication from all of the people who work at TBPN, not just John and Jordy, but like Ben, the producer, and Dylan, the president, and all of the other guys that work at the show. there is just a level of production like problems and programming issues and guestbooking and processes that you have created together over that level of time that MTS doesn't have.

Ashley Christenson (13:45) that yet. Because MTS has only existed for a couple of weeks now, it just needs more time to cook, honestly. It just needs more time to cook. I also think that the identity is a little bit different. So TBPN is very advertiser aware, very much going to do things that, well, previously before the acquisition was like brand safe. So one of the things you have to think about with content is who makes sense to advertise on this, assuming that you want sponsorships as the monetization model. There's also crowdfunding and other ways that you can make money from content. So they would stay away from certain topics like religion and politics, whereas MTS is not scared to go there at all. They're definitely OK with more political based shows even if somebody like Mercury or R.A.M.P. may not end up sponsoring the show as a result of that. They also are doing things like investing into production and getting a studio and like right now they're just working in the basement at A16Z so it doesn't look like a high level production. But it will over time. And the team is also moving very fast. I would say probably not as hardcore as TBPN, but the show runner that is working on this, one of the full-time team members, previously worked at TBPN. So there's a similar feel and a similar pace to it as well. So I think the show is going to improve a lot over time. They need a little bit of time to get it there. they didn't launch with the show in a perfect place and to be honest you kind of shouldn't launch live shows like that anyways. One of the things that...

Ashley Christenson (15:47) you have to do with content is you really have to just ship it and make, you know, 1 % improvements with every single new piece, whether that's live or video or short video. it's very difficult to make a, a perfect product. Maybe you can do that if you, you work with people who, you know, are very experienced, have been doing it for decades or agencies, like launch videos are a good example of this, but especially with live.

Gabe (16:16) Mm-hmm.

Ashley Christenson (16:17) It's something that you kind of co-create with the team in addition to the community that's building it and the the discord server for MTS like sources some ideas for the show So it's just something that naturally builds over time. It's much better to ship and make improvements than it is to to wait and like lose the the relevance of the moment and I think that's something that from my My perception in A16Z tends to do pretty well as they're very fast and they launch whenever the moment makes sense and they make improvements over time.

Gabe (16:59) Yeah, this is a little bit more of a maybe like an abstract, but what I'm understanding is there's like an operational proficiency that TBPN has put together and just refined and compounded over and over and over time where MTS is basically building up this institution, right? Like TBPN is this institution that's well-oiled and then we can see the compounding effects. Is that enough or? Do you think also kind of like the shine, and I don't mean to steer your answer, but kind of what I'm thinking is TBPN has this shine on it that I think people really resonate with, which is maybe more or less culturally. Do you think that this operational efficiency is all it takes along with a certain format and then you can kind of just build up the content from there, or is there kind of like this additional piece that, How do you weigh these? Maybe there's a better way of going about it.

Ashley Christenson (18:00) Yeah. Yeah, good question. I do think that operational efficiency matters because there are things that whenever it comes down to process, process does impact the product of the show. If you get into a situation where let's say you're not as efficient before the show goes live, guests aren't prepared, hosts aren't prepared, cameras or like production quality isn't what it could be and that could get in a host's head, that could be distracting. So there is something to be said absolutely for process and how it can make a show more comfortable for everybody who is involved so that they can put on the best show possible and not have to worry about, I don't know, looking into a camera that's like shutting down and flickering or they can't see chat or, you know, whatever issues they might experience while live or like even being able to ask better questions inside of an interview. There's a whole pre-production process that has to happen in order for interviews to be as successful as possible, as you know, because you did it for this conversation and all the other ones that you've had. You're right that there is a shine on TBPN right now that doesn't quite exist for MTS. Part of that comes down to format. A big thing that I'm talking to the MTS team about right now is like, who is this show for? It's okay if we want politics and we want to talk about tech and business, but is this like your...

Ashley Christenson (19:36) your, I don't know, terminally online ex-friend that you're just kind of looking through posts with? Or is this a VC network that's highlighting, you know, founders who are in a raise or they're building out more content so LPs will dedicate more funds to them? is this show a... Just like, what is the overall identity of the show? And... Sometimes people have a very clear vision for what it is and sometimes they don't. And when they don't, you have to bring the entire team together and kind of build out what that vision looks like. And sometimes you get to that vision over time. The more that you ship, the more that you find out what works and what doesn't work. And then you make those improvements. So I never say that a show or somebody who's launching something live or even if it's just like a produced recorded podcast, nobody should try to direct copy TBPN, I think that can't work if you're in like a completely different niche. You can kind of emulate the same format because it's TBPN's format is not unique either. It's like Sports Center but for tech and business. So we can apply that to lots of different categories and industries. But if you're playing in the same industry as TBPN, you want to adopt a different format and there's lots of different formats that we can experiment with. We could have cooking shows or tech and business travel shows. There's somebody who's doing a tech and business cribs show, which is breaking down people's so that you can see where they're building their startup from. You get to see their computer and their desk. There's reality shows, Judge Judy for tech and business. There's a never-ending list of things that we can create. And it's really exciting, because tech should be fun and interesting. And we deserve fun content, too, just like they have in the traditional entertainment industry.

Gabe (21:51) Yeah, yeah. We've seen this TPPN model kind of replicate like numerous times. It seems like it's the same industry, right? Or like X, right? X supports politics, finance, crypto, tech. And then it's almost like geo-located. Like we have TPPN in Europe and then we have like the New York version and then we have the original and we have the VC version. for these formats specifically, do you think that the Sports Center model is inherently better for the tech industry and that's why it just caught fire? Or do you think that it was just applied, like an operator just took this model and applied it in a way that made it extremely successful?

Ashley Christenson (22:38) Hmm. Yeah, I think that we... I do think that the Sports Center model makes a lot of sense because you're covering headlines, you're getting other people on the show. But even then, there's a lot of different formats you can use to arrive at a similar value prop, even if it's not Sports Center. So I don't think that it's the Sports Center model specifically that maybe the show was successful or made it valuable. something that we can apply the same value that people get into other formats.

Gabe (23:26) And so for the format. I want to understand, do you think, because for creatives, you know, this content creation is definitely literally creative, right? It's art. Do you think that there's like a data driven approach to come to a successful format and a successful show or some type of media presence? Or do you think that's almost more like artistically intuition driven? And like, how do you kind of see those two camps?

Ashley Christenson (23:59) Yeah, man, that is so fun. That's such a fun question because there are like when you look at the the creator economy and like content in general, there are kind of two different types of people. Well, there's there's actually an entire spectrum of people. But if we look at both sides of the spectrum, you've got like the hyper business, high business acumen strategist personality, personality types like myself. And then you have the high artist, like creative personality types and they care more about personal expression and creating art that has emotion and meaning. And so you can lie kind of on, you can lie anywhere on that spectrum. But those, if I had to categorize the... the, you know, each side of that spectrum, would kind of be those two personality types. And I think in order for content to be successful, if I'm being completely realistic, you need both. And artists that are listening to this will hate me for saying that. Generally the true, like, real artist does not love the business side. They just want to make art and not have to think about making money from it or getting views on it. They just want to make the thing that they love, the thing that's inside of them and have the, you know, organic traction and growth on it. Unfortunately, as the internet becomes noisier and noisier and everyone's competing for reach and reach for everybody goes down as a result, which we're seeing on Instagram reels, for example, artists are going to have to think more and more about what makes the content that they're creating valuable and interesting for people if their goal is to get views on it and to monetize it. For some people, it's just a hobby.

Ashley Christenson (26:02) They just want to like make the thing and not have to worry about anything and if it grows cool if it doesn't they don't really care I thought the percentage of people who are honestly okay with their stuff never growing. It's probably very small. think at our core all of us want to be recognized for the things that we care about and the things that we put out into the world, especially when it's something that's so important to us. And so that's where the business side comes in, thinking about distribution and reach and how you get content in front of people, how do you package it so people care about it? How do you monetize it? What's the model behind it? Who's the team? What are your resources? What do you have access to that other people don't? So I feel like they are both equally important, but I might even put... I don't know if I can give you a percentage of which one matters more. Those are the two, because as I'm, I'm observing what's happening with AI, of course, the business side and getting reach in a really competitive environment where everyone can post 500 TikTok videos a day is so important. But I also think that the content that resonates, the stuff that performs really well is the stuff that's more creative storytelling based artistic. human emotion versus, you know, top five tips for whatever, you know, the topic is of the video that you're creating. So I think that they're both important and I don't know if I could make a hierarchy there.

Gabe (27:47) Yeah, I kind of come to the same conclusion, especially just listening to you talk about it as like another outside perspective. It's almost like they do different jobs. And maybe they're not apples to apples in terms of the value proposition. So maybe you make good content, but you don't have any distribution. or you just do all this data-driven approach to understand, OK, what is the best content that is populating? But then you almost can kind of just fall into the algorithm. And now you're kind of maybe devalued, even though you're in the trend, unquote. And then also AI basically collapses one side of that. And it's kind of leaving this creative piece as where value is moving towards. So yeah, I'm curious for you, is that what you're seeing or how are you looking at the effects of AI that's potentially collapsing the data side or the operator side and where it's leaving the value to be held?

Ashley Christenson (28:52) Yeah, interesting. I do agree with you. think the... the ops and like data, a lot of that can be done by AI now. So we have various tools that can tell us, especially on YouTube itself, which is really fascinating. You can go to YouTube studio now and they will give you a breakdown on your video. As long as it's been live for a couple of days, they will actually tell you, know, here's what the comment said and the recommendations or the requests that your viewers had. Here's what we're seeing in in your view charts, based on the graphs and all of the data that YouTube gives you, here are the top three or four things you should keep in mind for the next video. And so that is incredibly helpful because when I talk about improving content 1 % every time, YouTube now tells you how to do that directly. Previously, you had to kind of decode that yourself. which a lot of creators, especially more like entertainment or artistic creators struggle with because they don't really care to build up like the business acumen or the marketing skillset. They just kind of want to publish more stuff and hopefully get it in front of more people. So that's a massive value add from AI, even just in a single YouTube feature. That's not counting everything that you can do with. Clawed chat and co-working code and all of the other tools like vidIQ, Tube AI is one that I'm using a lot. There's so many video AI tools that are helping us make a lot of these decisions now. I think with where value is accruing, I definitely agree. It's in the storytelling, it's in humanity, it's in relationships, it's in network.

Ashley Christenson (30:50) So many tools now that can copy and paste really any content if I'm being completely honest. they want to, if people want to imitate what it is that you create, they can very easily do it. We can use AI to make content at a massive scale that we've never seen before. And so now a lot of people have been discussing taste, which I hate to say, because I feel like everybody has talked about this ad nauseum and it's probably such a buzzword that it means nothing at this point, but no.

Gabe (31:20) I agree.

Ashley Christenson (31:20) Knowing what to make when you have the ability to make anything is a thing that differentiates you in addition to think value accrues around people who can use these tools at a level where I talk about it as almost like being on the limitless drug because it's like you can create at a level that you couldn't before if you have some unique perspective. The problem is for some creators especially newer ones, there's not a ton of unique value that they can share that really comes from either having unique life experience or even just like a length of life experience and that that perception, that perspective that you can share on top of just, you know, here's the news of the day, which is content that I will make. But I give my additional perspective on top as somebody who has been in live content as a strategist for 13 years, who has led marketing around with 50 different startups, worked in a couple of agencies, worked with some of the largest companies in the world, built communities. Like I get to speak from that lens.

Ashley Christenson (32:47) on position to give a completely unique perspective on things that maybe they didn't have the time to do before all of these tools existed so value is definitely around your unique lens and like what you can bring that can't just be given given as a response from Claude. In addition to I think community is something as well that I would like to see a lot more people talking about the importance of community. We're seeing a surge in IRL events, but we're also seeing a surge of interest in like private community spaces. People are retreating from the noise on public feeds. Adam Maceri, the head of Instagram, has said that Instagram has not been about the feed for several years. DMs. Like you get on Instagram to find short videos and send them to your friends or send them to your partner. And that's really what Instagram is. there's a there are a lot of different value adds in the AI era that I think are kind of reorganizing how we think about marketing and content and work in general.

Gabe (33:59) Mm-hmm. You have like a really nuanced perspective of like identity and people and kind of this humanities piece, which probably is the most lacking in the tech crypto AI adjacent spaces. And I think one example that you talked about before is the AI fruit series and like the AI reality show series. Can you kind of talk a little bit about that and like your theory around you know staying power right and if if someone creates AI content and then it has no like attribution but anyways yeah I'll let you hop into it maybe if you can give like an overview so I'm not butchering it

Ashley Christenson (34:44) Yeah.

Ashley Christenson (34:48) Yeah, no, Yeah, so you're talking about Fruit Love Island, which went viral on TikTok. It was a single person using AI tools to create a Love Island version of fruit. Like, the characters were all fruit. You would see a banana who was falling in love with a strawberry, and it was really... It was really degenerate to say the least. were lot of adult jokes and that flavor that Love Island has. What was that? yeah, Devastatris, absolutely. And this content went so viral that each episode got, I believe it was over 13 million views.

Gabe (35:22) Yeah, it's good match. That says debauchery for sure.

Ashley Christenson (35:44) It was the fastest growing TikTok account of all time. went from zero to three million followers in like a couple of weeks. Absolutely massive viewership, cultural resonance. It wasn't just that somebody had created a show and a lot of people were watching it. It was that people were... showing community behaviors as a response to the content that they had seen. So they were making videos about the Fruitlove Island stories. They were bought in. There was user-generated content or like CJC is what I call it, community-generated content about it and it was completely AI generated. So that's compelling because there was no human face, no human voice, no real human person that showed up at all. yet people still enjoyed the stories so much that they would make content and were completely bought in. And that is something that I have not seen with AI yet, which I thought was really interesting because if AI has the ability to create these community level behaviors in an audience, is that is community actually defensible for us as humans? And I think that it is because this account was was removed after couple of weeks, I believe, it was shut down and then copycats sprung up and so we saw just a handful of accounts that were trying to accomplish the exact same thing, people talking about how it was shut down, but nobody thought about like the creator behind.

Ashley Christenson (37:37) Fruit Love Island. Nobody really cared about the person. And the copycat sprang up and people started watching that content immediately. And there was no like mourning, right, for the original creator. There was no grieving. So I think the thing that differentiates us versus somebody who can create a ton of content at scale or like AI faceless channels, for example, one of the things that makes content defensible is the human behind it and whether or not people will actually care if you stopped posting. If you stopped posting and disappeared tomorrow, if there is anybody who would say, what happened? Where, where did you go? That is defensibility. That is community. That is someone who generally genuinely cares about you, not just the stuff that you create. And I think as we move into this era where reach becomes harder and harder to get, that building out community and having that relationship with people online, even if it's arguably a little parasocial, is really important because it creates a habitual experience in our viewers and our community members that... that preserves our reach and our attention even when everybody else is saying distribution is the moat and all of a sudden it's about how many eyeballs can you get on all of these vibe-coded products. So I do think that the human-to-human relationship is probably one of the most important things to focus on as a creator or a marketer in this reality.

Gabe (39:29) Yeah. Wow. OK. Yeah. We got to unpack that a little bit. So first.

Ashley Christenson (39:33) Fair.

Gabe (39:35) I do want to make a comment, is I see the fruit content is very much like maybe video entertainments as memes and the way that it like propagates feels more like a long form meme. And then it just kind of evolves where maybe like generated, I was going to say human generated content. This stuff is generated by humans using AI, right? But it seems like a lot of this, maybe like conversation right is not a meme so the way that it travels and is a bit different so yeah no no kind of question there but kind of the way I'm thinking about that yeah

Ashley Christenson (40:18) Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Entertainment media does travel a lot further, but usually you see that like conversion on it is also a lot less than something that might be a bit more educational like this.

Gabe (40:35) So basically you're saying defensibility here is going deep on, at least for this type of industry that we're in, the defensibility is going deep on the individual level.

Ashley Christenson (40:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree with that and I think that's why we're seeing such an interest in live content right now. YouTube Live has increased, I think, 30 % quarter over quarter. and oh no I'm sorry that that stat was wrong it's 30 % of daily YouTube users watch live content. 30 % of the billions of people who are on YouTube are watching live in some capacity. We're seeing you know TikTok live had astronomical growth they they decreased like 12 % this past Q1 2026 just as a result of all the stuff that's going on with the government kind of spinning off this US version of the app. Of course, Twitch has been kind of flat for several years since the pandemic and they had this explosive growth on the platform. But we're also seeing interest in live shopping. That has, I think it's a 37 % annual growth rate. That is 19 % of total commerce in China. It's 5 % in the US. So we still have a ways to go. the upcoming interest in live shopping is going to be absolutely huge. We're already seeing TikTok Shop convert really well. think that's, gosh, it converts around 10 % higher than traditional produced video. Engagement is around 10x higher. Return rates are 40 % lower. And with... just general live content even more entertainment based we're seeing gen z and younger generations as well like gen alpha right getting more and more invested in it because you can kind of shift the content based on the viewing experience that you want to have so if you want something more passive you can turn live content on in the background if you want something more active you can get involved in the chat you can watch

Ashley Christenson (43:01) larger creators and like be part of culture as it's happening that you know later on is gonna become a Forbes article or something. You can be part of a smaller community that's much more intimate where you have a group of friends who know you, who maybe you hang out with every single day. And so I view live content as like this. this human to human connection tool that you can't get in any other content type at the same level. Vlogs are kind of a similar value. you're able to get a sense more of a person when you see how they interact in their day-to-day life, but it's still not the same as being live with somebody and being able to ask a question in chat and see how they answer it or see what happens whenever their game crashes or they are... I know, out at a grocery store and they get recognized by somebody or like iShowSpeed recently did a stream underwater, the first underwater stream that I've ever heard of and that's really cool for people who are too scared of the ocean, right? He just went scuba diving in, I think, Ghana. Absolutely so cool, such a cool production. So I do think that that human to human relationship is crucially important in live content just kind of is, I think, the best format to create that outcome.

Gabe (44:41) And to circle back on the, think you made an interesting point on the community piece, right? So these live streams are generating these really deep social connections for viewers. When it comes to the AI community piece, you said it might not be defensible versus like Speed, who just is deeply ingrained in his community from this live stream approach, which is like his personality, his being really is, was being. Can you just talk more about like the AI piece? Like why is, why might not that be defensible and maybe like the contrast is somewhat like speed.

Ashley Christenson (45:21) Yeah, I think there is an innate human need to feel seen and recognized. And the ability for a human to do that for another human is huge. When we acknowledge each other, it feels... very cathartic. It feels like it matters because we're all human. understand the human experience and like the trials and the tribulations and the emotion. AI is not currently and maybe never in a position to be able to fully understand the complexity of human emotion. All of the little you know, the tone of voice, the very, very small, minute facial expressions that you make, the context of all of the things that you have experienced as a human and how those impact who you are today. I think that AI as like a relationship tool will improve. And there are absolutely people who are trying to build out like AI therapists. and AI girlfriends and all of these more relationship centric kind of technologies. But from what I can tell, there's just nothing that can really create that full sensation of the human experience, like talking to another person or being around them, IRL. just feeling seen by another individual who just absolutely understands who you are. And we need it so much that some people are trying to use AI for romantic companions. And we've all seen the headlines where people got way too involved with chat GPT. And then it created a sort of psychosis in them where they thought that they were maybe a much different person than is

Ashley Christenson (47:40) realistic. So I think to me that that shows the level of importance that human connection has for us and that in the era of AI just becomes more and more valuable.

Gabe (47:58) Got it. Excuse me. have allergies super bad.

Ashley Christenson (48:06) Bless you dude, it's allergy season.

Gabe (48:10) So it seems like there's almost like an algorithmic drift. without this kind of human course correction and content very much like can follow and does follow significantly this algorithmic drift. And maybe the value is in this person to person reality generation. And a little bit on this vein, like the AI basically allows you to produce content at scale, right? there's, AI is like a way that you can kind of enhance the quality of the production. in some regards. And then also like video quality, right, is another way of enhancing the production. You choose at a lot of times to like not participate in the high quality production. Maybe you record at like cafe or something like that. But it seems like you're almost doing that on purpose. know, is there some theory behind that or reasoning? I'd love to hear more.

Ashley Christenson (49:11) Yeah, man. Yeah, I'm glad that you picked up on that because you're you're totally right. It is intentional. Part of it is just because when I'm sharing content, I know that the most important thing is that it just like fits into your life every single day and that you get something from it. Otherwise, you're not going to keep going. And content is really a longevity game. And my life right now is so chaotic as a result of this like TBPN and MTS stuff. I have so many meetings back to back and even getting me in this conversation was like such a nightmare for you and I'm so sorry. It's just that's what's realistic for my life sometimes. I have a seven month old and so filming from home can be difficult especially when she's teething. But I also do think that There's a couple of different things happening here that have impacted my perspective and why I value this type of format, very low production. One is because I think there has been just a, I think we've all been slapped in the face with like value, make valuable content, make content that's just absolutely perfect, hyper-optimized, Mr. Beast level of thought and like strategic time. that goes into each piece. And part of that is on the production side. It's have the most clear camera, but it's also like the editing and make sure that it's fast paced and kind of dopamine drip style. of production and I think there will always be a place for that. I think the hyper optimizers will always be playing that game. Some people just really love that game but I don't and there are a lot of people who don't love that game. I don't personally love watching MrBeast content. I'll do it if it's like relevant to my development of like my thesis and the things that I'm learning and if it's important I will.

Ashley Christenson (51:22) but it's not my preferred style and it's just also not authentic to who I am. don't... I don't think about YouTube or produced video at that level. think much more in terms of community, real relationships, showing up as a real person, making people feel like they actually get to know me. And that is not well served by like hyper optimizing the content. So that's one aspect of it is the Mr. Beastification that everybody has been talking about for several years. I also think that there is genuine interest around just seeing somebody in their their native like day-to-day environment. It's something that I know, I just prefer to see this style of content that maybe is a little bit more vlog oriented, but is not, still not edited like a vlog because vlogs require so many different clips. Oftentimes there's so much happening. You have to like tell a story throughout the thing. I feel that it's more like, the story on my channel is...

Ashley Christenson (52:50) the things that I'm experiencing that you get like a small peek into in every single video versus a single video itself being like this huge narrative arc. So there are just different levels that creators want to compete at. Some creators want to compete for that top 1 % production and they're all about best camera, best, you you know what I'm saying. And then there are people who want to compete more on scale posting a lot of content and just being there all the time. And then there are people who want to compete on authenticity and feeling like a real person. And I just genuinely feel like with where the internet is going. The way that my camera looks doesn't matter nearly as much. That's not nearly as interesting as my ability to give people insight into this whole streaming strategy space, new media as it's developing. That is the value that I can give is that unique perspective, that 13 years. And that's valuable regardless if my camera looks great or not. if I have, I mean the microphone is one place where I will not compromise on quality. But that's valuable regardless if I'm filming a video on my MacBook in the car or if I am using, you know, my Sigma lens and like my Canon setup. So I'd much rather go like fuss free and just bring people into all of the things that I'm seeing as much as I can. And of course still improve 1 % with every upload as much as I can. But I just want to be, yeah, I just want to be a real person. And I feel like more and more people want that on the internet now.

Gabe (54:35) Yeah, wow, that's super interesting. It's almost, I think you have like a confidence that you have like a confidence range and then you almost can self-select because you have confidence in the distribution of the content in the first place, which is pretty interesting.

Ashley Christenson (54:52) Yeah, man, I have felt like that too and I wasn't sure. for while if I was crazy or not, honestly, because I'm like, I don't think people care. think, you know, and I felt these things. And so I talked to Jamie Rastburn. He helps entrepreneurs build their YouTube channels. And we didn't do like a paid call or strategy call or anything like that. He just saw my content and he was like, hey, let's let's have a conversation. So we did. And I floated this idea to him and he said, Yeah, yeah, and he's the one who actually gave me the insight YouTube is best whenever it does something for you because it keeps you posting versus trying to strategize and second-guess yourself and is this the right thing? It's like just if you're feeling some way about content There are a lot of other people who feel the exact same way as you. And I know if that's the way that I was feeling, that there are a lot of other people who are feeling the same way. And I've only made three videos in this style so far. And maybe the thesis is wrong. Maybe it's not true that people are interested in somebody just spinning up a MacBook in their car style YouTube video and just riffing. I don't script anything, nothing. I just go for it. So, you know, it could be wrong, but I'm also comfortable with that. If it's wrong, I'll just make another YouTube video and say, hey guys, I was wrong. I'm going to try something else. I think that's kind of the interesting part about content too, is that you get to try things and like build in public in real time. And sometimes you're right. And sometimes you're wrong. And people can learn a lot from the mistakes that you make. And it's okay to make mistakes in public. think too many creators probably try to be perceived as like perfect.

Ashley Christenson (56:48) smart, don't know, like hyperactualized individuals, which just isn't realistic. I want people to know I'm dumb too. I'm also stupid.

Gabe (57:00) Well, that's hard to see in this case. Yeah, I think we can, from perceiving your content, I can tell there's like a carefree range that you can traverse and it seems like the most comfortable and like effective for throughput range is the one that you're sitting in.

Ashley Christenson (57:22) Aw, I appreciate that, man. That really, that does, that doesn't mean a lot to get that, to get that compliment because I also wasn't sure. So the more that I hear that, the more that I'm like, okay, this is a, this is the right direction. Let's just keep going.

Gabe (57:37) Yeah, yeah, no problem. And that actually takes me to my next question. know we're going a little bit long here. can wrap up shortly, but... To kind of like self actualize, guess, is a way of your or kind of sit in the comfort of being yourself. It's counterintuitive to like the information that we hear about these hyper strict algorithms like YouTube X lately, right, which we can get into in a second. And it almost seems maybe that we have a poor understanding of how the algorithms work. If this type of like personal, you know, I this, you this is the way I want to see it, so I'm going to do it this way. Probably more times than not is like not what we're quote unquote told or instructed how to post. So I'm curious, do you think this is the case that you're experimenting with it now? But yeah, like can you kind of just show up on any platform the way you want to for a long enough period of time and then the out like the platform will tune to you? Or do you think you can actually kind of be sent to the graveyard with the ways that show up.

Ashley Christenson (58:47) Yeah, man, this is a really great question because you're completely right that, I don't know, we've heard from like gurus and educators. I don't want to be like an anti-guru person because I think there's valid education that's out there. But we've heard that, you know, these are all the best practices and these are the... ways that you should either make live content or YouTube videos or podcasts or X. There's just so many different tricks and pieces of information that people have shared over the years that we all, I think we all are at a place where we kind of understand what works and what doesn't. And sometimes not, sometimes algorithms change and things can adapt and they prioritize different things. But I'm a big believer that algorithms are just tools to surface the right content to the right people. I think that's true from everything that I've seen, from the stuff that I've researched. It's not that you're being shadow banned or there's this algorithm god in the sky who's determining who's allowed to be popular and who isn't. It's more like if you create stuff that resonates with people, it doesn't matter if it's perfectly formulaic or it's the the best format or production or whatever. Certain things can resonate. Lots of things can work. And I think with AI too, it's creating slop because a lot of us have been told what is supposed to work, yet AI still, like I said earlier, doesn't fully understand emotions or curiosity gaps. or hooks or the things that make humans actually care. And if an algorithm is just a tool to like surface the right content to the right person, then it's more about creating content for a person than it is creating content for an algorithm. The algorithm is just the thing that routes stuff to people. And so I think about it as if like, I'm speaking to somebody that

Ashley Christenson (01:01:08) would find this information interesting. And for my content, there's kind of like specific groups of people that I have in mind that I create for. And that to me, I think is what, that is more valuable than... maybe structuring a post on X correctly so that you get like the highest dwell time on it, because the algorithm prioritizes that. It's important to know what algorithm's like, I think. It's always great, but sometimes you do make decisions that maybe it's not what the algorithm wants, but you know that it's something that people are going to like, and that's the most important thing.

Gabe (01:01:53) So when you're making content, are you picturing you're talking to an individual? Are you talking to an audience? Do you have a visual representation of this? Because I think a lot of people maybe talk to the algorithm, and that might be the problem in itself. But what's your visual representation as you're posting on X or doing recorded content? Are you speaking to an individual, like a metaphorical audience, like a lecture? Can you take us through that?

Ashley Christenson (01:02:22) Yeah.

Gabe (01:02:23) bit.

Ashley Christenson (01:02:23) Yeah, so yes, I have a couple of audiences in mind, which is has been a unique experience because usually you're told you want to only create for one group of people. You want, you know, one problem, one person, one outcome that you provide per channel. And if you're doing anything more than that, you should separate it out into other channels. And I do think that there's validity in that as well. But that's just not what my content is. And that's not authentic to my life again. I don't want to run like five YouTube channels to speak to five different audiences. whenever I'm thinking of the audience, one is small streamers, because that was my first audience that I created for and the topics that I talk about are still compelling for them because I'm sharing a lot of like platform news and strategy. The difficulty for them and the reason that I'm not going to appeal to like the largest group of small streamers possible is because if I'm not solely targeting that person then the the content is I'm not making decisions as far as title and thumbnail and the topics that I talk about that cater specifically to that that type of person if I was only catering to like the small twitch streamer or the small kick or like rumble streamer I would be much more likely to make content about like how to grow from zero to 15 viewers or I don't know even kind of drama based news. Something that that type of person tends to like a lot more aside from like they want to grow their stream and they want to make money. Those are their two major outcomes. So if I was trying to attract that person it would all be here's how to grow your Twitch stream. Here's how to make more money from your Twitch stream. stream or your Twitch community. That would be like the two outcomes that I would focus on. But as I started posting more on X and doing more deep dives into the...

Ashley Christenson (01:04:38) like news, Mr. Beast using streaming or like TBPN or MTS and being able to bring this educational lens to it that nobody else has been able to. Maybe, maybe Devin Nash, if he was more kind of focused on these industries would be more interested in posting about this stuff. But. you know, he's more in like e-sports gaming category. So he's not covering nearly as much the tech and business headlines. So as I started making content on X about this, I started to realize, this is actually really resonating with a very high quality person. And that was founders of startups, investors, VCs, people in like big, big companies like guys at Anthropic, guys in creator economy startups, like the CEO of Riverside DMed me, one of the executives at the Huffington Post, the... Let's see, people at Yahoo Finance found me. There's just a very different caliber of person, more executive business oriented person that is now interested in this information. And so I create for that level of person as well, which means that I'm covering much more from the senior level, like strategic kind of thinking around, let's say frameworks, why live content works, when to use it, who it works best for, how to utilize it across industries. So I'm, I'm speaking to kind of these two categories of people at once. And maybe it would be more strategic if I separated it out this like B2B style content onto another channel. But in my conversation with Jamie, I asked him about this. I was like, is this a totally different category of person? Should I do a film booth? Ed, whatever, I forget his name.

Ashley Christenson (01:06:48) but should I do what he did? He was a B2C channel. Should I create a B2B channel? He forexed his revenue as a result, even though his viewership is a lot smaller. And he was like, honestly, I have, you have this history of creating. content many years ago for small streamers and that actually adds to your credibility. So it might impact your viewership, but the story that this channel tells is really interesting. And I had felt that and to hear him say that I was like, okay, I've got a, I've got a YouTube guy in my corner that's telling me I'm doing the right thing. So let's just, let's just go for it. So yeah, to answer your question. Yes, whatever I am creating content, I try to

Gabe (01:07:18) Thank

Ashley Christenson (01:07:36) to think of the person, but it is a little difficult sometimes because I'm creating for multiple groups instead of just a single individual. And honestly, sometimes I don't create with a person in mind. I just make it because it's something that I am like... I don't know, theoretically interested in exploring, right? It's something that adds on to the thesis that I have that we've been talking about this whole conversation with live content being so compelling for people and human connection in the era of AI and all of these topics that I'm just so interested in exploring. Sometimes I create for myself too.

Gabe (01:08:19) Interesting, okay. Yeah, creating for yourself is interesting because it's like self-entertainment basically.

Ashley Christenson (01:08:28) Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, when I make a post on X, sometimes I'm like, ooh, this is so fun. And I get to talk to Claude and go back and forth and tell it when it's wrong and say, that's a good insight. So like, I'm also learning as I'm making this content too, which is I've recognized for myself during my career. If I feel like I'm in an organization or working with a team where I'm not really learning anything, like if I'm the person at the top, this is also why I got really bored of being a founder. It's not as compelling for me and I just won't spend a lot of time on it because I don't feel like I'm learning enough.

Gabe (01:09:06) Yeah. Okay, so can you put this into maybe like a loose framework where there's like this chicken and egg problem and this goes back to kind of like the data versus the intuition. Like, do you just study what works or do you kind of cultivate like this creative personality? They're hand in hand, right, for this type of situation. But can you give us like a framework of how to maybe produce content? Does it stem from this creative lens and then you apply the persona that you want to like talk to or how do you think through this because there's like a discovery that happened on Twitter as well it seems

Ashley Christenson (01:09:45) Yeah, yeah, um, so I'll say with my ex content, there was definitely a time I felt like I was posting within this category and maybe not getting as much visibility as I am now. but it was a very short amount of time, if I'm completely honest. The original post, the TBPN breakdown that I did that, got me recognized initially. And then there have been other ones since then, like breaking down MTS or breaking down the Mr. Beast, flywheel. It really just comes from feeling like I'm in this weird position where I can share something that... gives perspective that nobody else can share on the timeline. Like with TBPN, was seeing, I mean, it's crazy to see a headline of this company was just acquired for $115 million and hey, it's a live stream. That's crazy to me. You know, that was a very natural fit into the things that I've thought about for a really long time. So whenever I did that breakdown and it was a really long post, usually long posts do not perform. for me so I tend to stay away from them but when I did that deep dive into it and I was like here's what actually happened with the TBP and acquisition. I think the framework is probably the history and like lens that I can apply so that's not really something that people can can utilize like that's not really tactical for most other people but there is something to be said for it was very timely that news had just been announced. It was unique perspective that I had seen some other people say this podcast got acquired and I was like, no, that's wrong. It's not a podcast.

Ashley Christenson (01:11:42) There were people who were saying, it's just because John and Jordy are really charismatic guys. I'm like, no, that's wrong. you know, I think it's like taking, having a stance on something and giving a unique perspective in a timely manner on a topic that a lot of other people are talking about. And if I had to make like the trifecta of what makes my content successful right now, it would be that it, any posts that I have that's very timely. is topical. because you have things that are like news, if nobody is talking about them at scale, then it doesn't really matter. There was an Instagram post, Instagram feature that came out that I wanted to talk about, but nobody's talking about it. I'm, know, I could, I would share it. I would get like a little bit of engagement on it, but I don't really need to and I'm busy today. Anyways, sorry. So timely. the amount of people who are talking about the thing, and then the deep dive, the unique lens that I apply to it. And those three things are probably what makes it stand out versus some other stuff on the timeline.

Gabe (01:12:58) Interesting. Yeah, I would say podcasts, I do not like the word podcast, like someone's like, Oh, you're podcast. I'm like, this is a this is a an environment to cultivate knowledge. This is not a podcast per se. You know, I don't maybe I'm just

Ashley Christenson (01:13:13) yeah, okay, so you feel like podcasts kind of trivializes what you do.

Gabe (01:13:19) Yeah, yeah, might. This might just be like a personal thing, but I do.

Ashley Christenson (01:13:23) No, I definitely get it, dude. I get it. It's like you're, I mean, you're, definitely a good interviewer. can tell you, you've done your research and your, I don't know, your ability to like ask questions off of the things that I'm saying is really, you're, you're really, you're much better at this than I am. You're really good at this.

Gabe (01:13:48) Yeah, maybe this is this hopefully this is my lane here so I think the the way that you it makes it easier for me because I think you have deep thought on a lot of these tracks and I and I don't necessarily know where you're go but I can kind of follow the thread of What's maybe important and kind of how you're thinking about this stuff? So that's super helpful for me. It's not always the case talking with everyone where they'll kind of complete the thought around around, you know, maybe like an area. So yeah, it makes it easier for me. Yeah, yeah, but I appreciate it.

Ashley Christenson (01:14:24) Good. I'm so glad. I tried to answer your question at the end of like, wrap this up, girl, put a bow on this. Don't forget to actually come to a point at the end because I used to be really bad at that. would just waffle on forever. No, that's I mean, you know, it's just like that sometimes.

Gabe (01:14:39) Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Gabe (01:14:48) Yeah, yeah. Okay, so and how are you on time here?

Gabe (01:14:55) Okay, okay, let's wrap up. Let me...

Gabe (01:15:04) Actually, I have a real...

Gabe (01:15:10) Okay, so the way you're looking at this is you did you do have, you know, intuition of okay, what is good to post, but you're using like, like a like time as a variable to understand, okay, is this relevant? party equation? And then is this like bubbling up essentially? Like is there other discourse that's that's bubbling up around that? And then with the TPPN, you basically saw, time is now, and then the concept, you know, I'm an expert in this field, and this is a rare, this is like a rare thing that's happened. So that was like a way that you were able to identify like a new customer, essentially, or a new voice and audience to speak to.

Ashley Christenson (01:15:55) Yeah, yeah, and to be fair, that unique blend of things does not happen every single day. There's not daily news in my category that I can speak on at this level that is happening across the timeline. That is like... not super, super rare. would say maybe it happens. Like it's happened really three times over the last couple months. The first was the TBPN acquisition. And then I think it was the Mr. Beast live stream. And then shortly after that, maybe like a month after it was MTS. So I don't get this opportunity every single day, but I'm still posting every single day. I try to post like one to three times a day usually. So that means that some days the engagement and like the interest in my stuff is a little bit lower, but that's okay. There are, you know, not every day can be the best day. And I talked earlier about the peaks and valleys that you usually experience and marketing and content. So that's just, this is a very natural part of it. And then there will also be days like I have a banger and days where I'm and that post maybe wasn't... it was more for me than it was for an audience, which is also, you know, that's okay too. Sometimes I'm gonna have those days where I just make a post that I care about that maybe not everybody does, or a topic that I think is more interesting than everybody else thinks it is, because I have... I do have niche, kind of nuanced perspective and interest in some of these things to the point that not everybody cares about I don't know, Instagram launching this live shopping thing that they launched, I think it was this morning actually. So yeah, I know that that post is not gonna perform as well, but I'm probably gonna make it, because it's cool to me.

Gabe (01:18:02) Yeah, Yeah, this is has been great. Appreciate you coming on. And last question before we wrap is. Other than the live stream connection, is kind of like your core thesis, right? This human to human value accrual model, which probably over the next generation is going to be a huge dominant feature of media content generation. Where is there like some alpha or things that are bubbling up that no one is really looking at? It seems like clipping, which we'll have to like do another show on this, but clipping has, it seems like it's It's peaking. But at some point, yeah.

Ashley Christenson (01:18:43) Yeah, I think clipping is f***ing for sure. sorry to cut you off, go ahead.

Gabe (01:18:48) Yeah, no worries. Yeah, Clipping speaking, but at some point it was the alpha, right? Like if you knew what clipping was, that was the game changer. What do you think, and it's good to ask this at the end for the people who are paying attention, but yeah, what do you think is kind of that next meta, if you will, for the listeners still hanging on?

Ashley Christenson (01:19:12) I love that you gave, yeah, you're like rewarding the people who are staying through to the end. smart. Yeah, I... think live shopping is like criminally under discussed right now and under appreciated. I think some people have seen it come up on the timeline. Gary Vee has talked about it. Even when he talks about it, nobody engages with it. When I talk about it, I made a post about how QVC was being impacted by like essentially how live shopping is the new internet era QVC. And then it was crazy the next day QVC announced that they were filing for bankruptcy. Like they were so impacted by live shopping on TikTok, what not, Amazon live shopping, which their live shopping is not that great, but what not is doing incredible work and even live shopping on like owned streams, your own stream. You can sell things. learned about this. 2018 I released an ebook. I sold like I don't know a thousand dollars overnight when I first launched it which was a pre-sale and I thought that was really cool. I had never you know I went to sleep and woke up with a thousand dollars. That was really cool and then whenever I went live on the day that it was available for purchase I made $4,000 in an hour or two, which was like an astronomical amount of money for me. I'm from like very humble beginnings. so that to me was the first time I was like, oh my God, live selling converts at a level that I did not realize was as impactful as it actually can be. think as people

Ashley Christenson (01:21:19) grow more more accustomed to live content, we're going to see more conversion opportunities inside of live. I've also seen similar data from a tool called Borty. So I met with the founders of Borty. They raised from VC, like they're in a really interesting position. Borty has, think, 150,000 executives and like white collar workers and he's essentially like a networking AI. So if you're in the Borty network, you will be shared with other people in the Borty network. If you guys have something in common that you're both looking for. For example, if I want to help companies create live programming, I can tell Borty, hey, this is who I am. We do a short intro call. It's like a 15 minute, five minute call with an AI. It's crazy. And then you say, okay, well, I want to provide these live streaming services. And it says, okay, anytime that somebody tells me that they're looking for live, I will tell them who you are and I will connect to you. It's nuts. And so they went live with a guy who was selling a book and the book... hit number one on the New York Times bestseller organically because like the thousand people showed up to the live stream. He sold tens of thousands of copies of this book and made it to number one. it's. live shopping once people realize that it's a better conversion ROI than short video, than produce video, than podcasts, there will be an absolute explosion. So anybody who starts getting really good at this now and can position themselves to maybe help brands do this or help entrepreneurs sell stuff live or help their community members or even just make their own stuff and sell it live.

Ashley Christenson (01:23:28) there's massive growth that's going to come to that space and nobody is taking it nearly as seriously as they should.

Gabe (01:23:36) Yeah, wow. Yeah, yeah. I know the conversation is going good when I'm like scrambling to take notes on the side. So. Yeah, so, but yeah, anyways, thanks. Thanks for that. Borty is the app that you're that you're talking about, right?

Ashley Christenson (01:23:41) Good. Yes.

Ashley Christenson (01:23:51) Yeah, yeah, it's Bordy.ai, B-O-A-R-D-Y, and I'm not like sponsored or affiliated or anything. I had one call with them just to explore the tool and teach them a little bit about life.

Gabe (01:24:05) Yeah, cool. Well, yeah, this was a great conversation. I appreciate you coming on and yeah, I hope to have you again on sometime soon.

Ashley Christenson (01:24:12) Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Gabe (01:24:14) Take care.